Offshore Systems, beyond N2K tank sensors

Ben Ellison

Ben Ellison

Panbo editor, publisher & chief bottlewasher from 4/2005 until 8/2018, and now excited to have Ben Stein as very able publisher, webmaster, and editing colleague. Panbo is going to the next level in 2019 and beyond.

20 Responses

  1. Cattledog says:

    So for the tech challenged without enough coffee in the system yet, what does the rudder angle display on?
    I’m running a complete 4212 Garmin system.

  2. Ben Ellison Ben Ellison says:

    The Rudder angle (and direction) PGN 127245 displays on some MFDs, many all-in-one instrument displays, and most any autopilot head, even if the associated AP doesn’t need rudder angle to operate. In the case of Garmin I know that both a GMI 10 and GHC 10 will show it.
    In fact, I often used a GMI 10 as a full screen analog style rudder angle gauge for Gizmo’s Simrad autopilot last season. The Simrad rudder angle sensor is not N2K but the data is bridged onto SimNet (N2K) in the course computer.

  3. Dan Corcoran (b393capt) says:

    Ben, would you know how they over come the ultrasonic “dead band” issue, where it can’t measure tanks that are either near full or near empty ? Can they really measure as little as a cm of fuel in the tank, and tanks with more than 90% fuel, or did they just overcome sending erroneous signals on those two extremes?
    Hard to tell much from the documents that are linked.

  4. Ben Ellison Ben Ellison says:

    That sounds like a trick question, Dan. First of all, who says there is a universal ultrasonic “dead band” issue that effects both high and low readings?
    Offshore does make a competitive claim — “No ultrasonic ‘dead band’ which makes it impossible to measure the fuel in the top 75mm or 3 inches of the Fuel tank!” — but I don’t know if it’s true.
    So I guess the answer is that Offshore sender technology MAY be able to do something ultrasonic sender technology can’t by not being ultrasonic?

  5. Powerabout says:

    I love the irony of the company called Offshore Systems making N2K gear and N2K is not approved for (commercial)offshore vessels by the IMO only 0183
    I love the gear just wish it had serial output

  6. Dan Corcoran (b393capt) says:

    Dead Band & Offshore, nope not a trick question.
    I am basing my question on (1) my personal experience with the Maretron product, which gives an undefined reading when the fluid rises to a distance too close for the sensor to read. They have a fix for that with an optional physical cylinder that goes in the tank, which creates an air gap in front of the sensor, but that causes the sensor to report the tank is full early. (2) an industry friends experience using ultrasonic fluid sensors in fuel oil tanks is similar. (As an aside, there are other issues with installing ultrasonic sensors in marine tanks, that are more perplexing than this issue)
    For a low tank the issue revolves around the sensor pointing at a bare section of tank, while the tank still has fluid. Normally this is because there was a good reason not to install the sensor over the lowest part of the tank, the boat is heeled, etc. But, rather than showing 0% or some other number, the sensor gives the same undefined value as the sensor provides for a near full tank.
    To me this low band issue is remedied if the sensor has a way to know what a full tank is, then undefined can only mean one thing … no fluid under the sensor.
    So my question for Offshore, is how did they resolve the the dead band issue? Is it really resolved, or masked? Use an additional sensor along with the ultrasonic sensor to know if tank full? Ultrasonic Sensor has memory so it can remember if the tank was near full or near empty before it reads undefined? Solved by positioning sensor further above tank so sensor is always a necessary distance away from the fluid in a full tank? (but does that require the tank have space above it for a raised sensor?) Did they use a cylinder to capture an air bubble under the sensor, so the liquid stays the necessary distance away ? Or, something in the ultrasonic sensor or supporting electronics does away with the “dead-band”?
    Couldn’t figure this out from the links.

  7. Ben Ellison Ben Ellison says:

    Dan, what makes you think that Offshore fluid level sensors use ultrasonic technology? Do you realize that they include a probe that goes nearly to the bottom of the tank? I don’t think they have anything to do with ultrasonic measurement and that’s why Offshore claims they don’t suffer from issues that some ultrasonic sensors may have. I’ll retract “tricky” but replace it with “confusing”.

  8. Ben Ellison Ben Ellison says:

    Meant to note that Offshore also offers a NMEA 2000 to ModBus gateway for big boats. I don’t think ModBus is IMO approved either, of course, because the IMO takes its time with such things.
    http://www.osukl.com/3155.htm
    Also, when Kees was at METS he heard that Offshore is planning larger displays: http://goo.gl/dftIJ

  9. Keith says:

    I believe their fluid level sensor is capacitative. I have one on my rib in my underdeck fuel tank. It needs to ‘learn’ the full and empty positions and then provides fluid level output. It comprises of a hollow stainless probe which has a stainless rod within it isolated by little spacers along its length. You just measure the depth of your tank and cut the probe to length. If connected to one of their head units you can also calibrate it for unusual shaped tanks.

  10. Rick Kain says:

    The Simrad autopilot packages ship with a non-Simnet rudder position indicator, but you can easily order a Simnet version which displays nicely on the Maretron DMS250.

  11. Ben Ellison Ben Ellison says:

    Rick, I’m pretty sure that if you put the Maretron display on the same N2K network as the Simrad AP it would see rudder angle regardless of which Simrad rudder sensor is used. That’s because the Simrad course computer bridges analog rudder data onto NMEA 2000.
    One thing that doesn’t work, though, is a Maretron rudder adaptor with a Simrad RF300 sensor. Apparently Simrad uses a unusual technique for sending the angle data to the course computer. I’d guess that the Offshore Systems adapter won’t work with an RF300 either, as it only claims compatibility with “standard resistive senders.”

  12. Hendrik says:

    Simrad now uses the RF25.
    That is the simnet equivalent of the RF300.

  13. Bruce Coward says:

    Our senders are capacitive so they really measure from the bottom of the probe right up to the top of the probe so hence “no ultrasonic dead band” is absolutely true.
    Cheers, Bruce

  14. Dan Corcoran (b393capt) says:

    Thanks Bruce. In advertising it is not rare to define a products strengths as a weakness of a technology your not using, but it sure is confusing when there is no mention in the description that your product is an orange when your talking about the dead band of the apple.

  15. Bruce Coward says:

    Hi Dan, I reckon you have a good point there! I thought we defined our units as capacitive and was trying to point out that this avoided the various ultrasonic problems. Cheers, Bruce

  16. Steve says:

    NMEA 2000 is approved for commercial offshore ships under the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) 61162-3 which was published in 2008. IMO actually references 61162 series which includes the -3 which is NMEA 2000.

  17. Ted Arisaka says:

    I’ve got a Simrad AC42 and RF25 setup and the Rudder data displays nicely on our Maretron DSM250 display (from the RF25 PGN). However, the AC42 continues to transmit the same PGN with 0 or null value (I can’t recall) and no way seemingly to turn it off. There is supposedly a Navico SW Update Tool, anyone familiar with this utility? Thanks.

  18. Rick Kain says:

    With the RF300 RPI, you need the autopilot turned on to see the rudder position. With the RF25, it outputs to Simnet directly so the DSM250 will see it without the autopilot.

  19. Mike says:

    The fact that one brave soul fought his way through the thicket is a testament to his tenacity and fortitude, not the encouraging nature of the ecosystem.
    The real loss are the devices which didn’t get built or software which didn’t get written because of the antics of the N2K Overlords.
    That’s called “opportunity cost”. Yes, it’s hard to quantify, but in the world of rapidly moving technology, like that based on Internet and modern electronics technology, it is almost invariably quite high. Best of all, the few times it is not large still count in the win column.

  20. Ben Ellison Ben Ellison says:

    Don’t let the facts get in your way, Mike!
    Check out the list recently posted on NMEA’s front page of N2K products certified so far in 2012. I see three companies I’ve never heard of even though I’ve covered this industry pretty closely for over a decade:
    Egersund Marine Electronics, http://www.egersundmarine.no
    San Giorgio S.E.I.N, http://www.sangiorgiosein.com
    Sea Cross Marine AB, http://www.seacross.se
    Congratulations to all.
    There were also new certifications for Offshore Systems size (I think) companies like AllTek Marine and True Heading, as well for Airmar, Furuno, Icom, Simrad, and Victron.
    Mike, if you actually have some factual evidence that N2K hardware isn’t getting built by viable companies because they can’t afford the documentation and certification costs — which are pretty normal for open standards of this type — please take it to the Forum. This entry is trying to be about Offshore.

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